Discussion:
Using Colortone stain on quilted maple electric guitar top
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RJ
2004-06-05 03:51:47 UTC
Permalink
I have not used this stain on figured maple before. Can anyone offer first
hand experience on sealing or pre-treating, to insure the stain goes on
uniformly and the woodgrain is not obstructed. The stain is ColorTone brand
Vintage Amber, from Stewart MacDonald guitar supply. I tested a sample
piece of bare wood with a brush, and I got some dark spots. Can I spray the
stain diluted?

If I mix the stain with clear waterbased lacquer, I'm worried that the grain
won't show thru as bold, as direct stain then many clear coats. Thanks for
any experiences.

RJ
Mattia Valente
2004-06-05 09:17:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJ
I have not used this stain on figured maple before. Can anyone offer first
hand experience on sealing or pre-treating, to insure the stain goes on
uniformly and the woodgrain is not obstructed. The stain is ColorTone brand
Vintage Amber, from Stewart MacDonald guitar supply. I tested a sample
piece of bare wood with a brush, and I got some dark spots. Can I spray the
stain diluted?
If I mix the stain with clear waterbased lacquer, I'm worried that the grain
won't show thru as bold, as direct stain then many clear coats. Thanks for
any experiences.
IMO you'll get a better result by staining the lacquer, not the bare
wood. Seal the wood with a clear coat, tint the lacquer lightly, spray
coats until you get the right colour, then clearcoat. The grain will
show just fine.

Mattia
Chris Johnson
2004-06-05 12:07:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mattia Valente
.
IMO you'll get a better result by staining the lacquer, not the bare
wood. Seal the wood with a clear coat, tint the lacquer lightly, spray
coats until you get the right colour, then clearcoat. The grain will
show just fine.
Mattia
I have used ColorTone stains in several ways. I've tried the direct
stain approach and I've used it to tint clear lacquer, and combinations.

Here's the deal:

Tinting the clear lacquer is probably the most manageable and
controllable way to get a uniform color, or, if your spray
technique is good, to get a shaded finish.

Tinting the wood itself, with the same tint, gives a very different
effect. The stain will soak in more in the more open pores in the
wood grain, making those areas darker than the rest. This has a
definite grain enhancing effect which you might find pleasant, but
you have to be careful not to overdo it because if you get too much
stain in the open grain sections, those sections will stay dark in
appearance at ANY angle you view it at, and there goes the beautiful
effect you get on curly or flamed maple as you change the angle of
the light or the instrument. This is called "chatoyance", by the way.

A Paul Reed Smith type finish is based on direct staining of the wood
as the first step. Then, depending on the intended result, sometimes
the wood gets a second staining (double stain, a special way of
doing it) and sometimes then a shader is applied in clear paint to
apply the darker rim of a sunburst.

The double stain is a neat process which I've used with great success.
It's done by choosing the two colors of stain you want on the guitar
top (say purple and light blue for an enhanced ocean-like appearance
to the flame) and first you apply the darker (purple) stain, and then
after it has dried, you sand most of it off. Some remains in the
more open grain. Then you apply the lighter stain. The result
is a dramatic, classic PRS-type finish base. It's up to you to then
apply the sealer and clear coats to the best of your ability.


The technique of staining itself is simple. Put a good rubber glove
on, mix some stain with denatured alcohol or lacquer thinner (NOT
acetone!!! It reacts!) and dip a CLEAN fresh cloth into it, and start
wiping down the top. The trick is not to have the mix too strong
on stain, but not too weak, either. Play with it on a scrap piece
before you commit to staining your first top. Also this helps you
to see how the stains interact.

Do your single or double stain as required, and then...I'm giving
away my secrets here...here's how you really give the stain job
the smooth look you're hoping for:

(At this point, if you have to do a little bit of sanding to smooth
out any minor flaws, go ahead and do it, gently. The next step
will blend any spots that lose their stain and nobody, not even you,
will ever know.)

Dip a clean cloth in straight, untinted lacquer thinner. Make sure
the rag is wet but not dripping. Not just damp, either.

Now rub it on your stained top, all around it, repeatedly, adding
more thinner to the cloth as necessary. This is the final blending
stage, and as far as I'm concerned, it's what makes the finish come
alive.

Good luck!

CJ
Mattia Valente
2004-06-05 12:37:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Johnson
Tinting the clear lacquer is probably the most manageable and
controllable way to get a uniform color, or, if your spray
technique is good, to get a shaded finish.
Agreed. Also, diluting with water and trying to wipe on the stains is
far from an easy task. Better to use alcohol for these.
Post by Chris Johnson
Tinting the wood itself, with the same tint, gives a very different
effect. The stain will soak in more in the more open pores in the
wood grain, making those areas darker than the rest. This has a
definite grain enhancing effect which you might find pleasant, but
you have to be careful not to overdo it because if you get too much
stain in the open grain sections, those sections will stay dark in
appearance at ANY angle you view it at, and there goes the beautiful
effect you get on curly or flamed maple as you change the angle of
the light or the instrument. This is called "chatoyance", by the way.
To be honest, I've gotten the best results on maple by just popping the
figure with oil and/or shellac, and then tinting the lacquer. I've yet
to really get satisfactory chatoyance by staining the wood directly.
Post by Chris Johnson
The double stain is a neat process which I've used with great success.
It's done by choosing the two colors of stain you want on the guitar
top (say purple and light blue for an enhanced ocean-like appearance
to the flame) and first you apply the darker (purple) stain, and then
after it has dried, you sand most of it off. Some remains in the
more open grain. Then you apply the lighter stain. The result
is a dramatic, classic PRS-type finish base. It's up to you to then
apply the sealer and clear coats to the best of your ability.
Hmmm...may have to try out some finishes on scraps. My technique overall
is a good deal better than it was last time I tried directly staining
the wood, and I've got more stains to play with.
Post by Chris Johnson
Do your single or double stain as required, and then...I'm giving
away my secrets here...here's how you really give the stain job
(At this point, if you have to do a little bit of sanding to smooth
out any minor flaws, go ahead and do it, gently. The next step
will blend any spots that lose their stain and nobody, not even you,
will ever know.)
Dip a clean cloth in straight, untinted lacquer thinner. Make sure
the rag is wet but not dripping. Not just damp, either.
Now rub it on your stained top, all around it, repeatedly, adding
more thinner to the cloth as necessary. This is the final blending
stage, and as far as I'm concerned, it's what makes the finish come
alive.
Aaah....now that's interesting. Hmmm. Food for thought indeed.

Thanks for that!

Mattia
RJ
2004-06-05 15:24:43 UTC
Permalink
I was worried about the open pore problem, where direct stain will soak in
and darken too much. I'm going to try the spray approach on my first go.
When you suggest to seal the wood with a clear coat, then tint the lacquer -
are you suggesting a clear lacquer coat as the first coat on the bare wood?
Or a clear sanding sealer coat first on the bare wood?

I think the direct stained rubbing approach sounds like the ultimate in eye
popping grain detail, but I'm a little intimidated by the tricky hand work.
I'm going to get one stain job under my belt first, but I am going to save
Chris' instructions for the double stain, for the next project. I went to
heavy before on a funiture project, and lost the chatoyance of the grain, as
you mentioned.

I 'm thinking of a light amber tinted lacquer spray coat, followed by a
second tinted lacquer coat. On the second coat, would like to slightly
darken and add a slight red tint, for an orange/amber result. My pigments
are the ColorTone waterbased, with the ColorTone clear waterbase lacquer. Do
you see any problem with mixing a little red tint, and a minute amout of
black to tint the clear lacquer for the second "stain" spray coat?

Mattia and Chris - I very much appreciate your time for this advice.
Post by Mattia Valente
Post by Chris Johnson
Tinting the clear lacquer is probably the most manageable and
controllable way to get a uniform color, or, if your spray
technique is good, to get a shaded finish.
Agreed. Also, diluting with water and trying to wipe on the stains is
far from an easy task. Better to use alcohol for these.
Post by Chris Johnson
Tinting the wood itself, with the same tint, gives a very different
effect. The stain will soak in more in the more open pores in the
wood grain, making those areas darker than the rest. This has a
definite grain enhancing effect which you might find pleasant, but
you have to be careful not to overdo it because if you get too much
stain in the open grain sections, those sections will stay dark in
appearance at ANY angle you view it at, and there goes the beautiful
effect you get on curly or flamed maple as you change the angle of
the light or the instrument. This is called "chatoyance", by the way.
To be honest, I've gotten the best results on maple by just popping the
figure with oil and/or shellac, and then tinting the lacquer. I've yet
to really get satisfactory chatoyance by staining the wood directly.
Post by Chris Johnson
The double stain is a neat process which I've used with great success.
It's done by choosing the two colors of stain you want on the guitar
top (say purple and light blue for an enhanced ocean-like appearance
to the flame) and first you apply the darker (purple) stain, and then
after it has dried, you sand most of it off. Some remains in the
more open grain. Then you apply the lighter stain. The result
is a dramatic, classic PRS-type finish base. It's up to you to then
apply the sealer and clear coats to the best of your ability.
Hmmm...may have to try out some finishes on scraps. My technique overall
is a good deal better than it was last time I tried directly staining
the wood, and I've got more stains to play with.
Post by Chris Johnson
Do your single or double stain as required, and then...I'm giving
away my secrets here...here's how you really give the stain job
(At this point, if you have to do a little bit of sanding to smooth
out any minor flaws, go ahead and do it, gently. The next step
will blend any spots that lose their stain and nobody, not even you,
will ever know.)
Dip a clean cloth in straight, untinted lacquer thinner. Make sure
the rag is wet but not dripping. Not just damp, either.
Now rub it on your stained top, all around it, repeatedly, adding
more thinner to the cloth as necessary. This is the final blending
stage, and as far as I'm concerned, it's what makes the finish come
alive.
Aaah....now that's interesting. Hmmm. Food for thought indeed.
Thanks for that!
Mattia
Mattia Valente
2004-06-05 16:22:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJ
I was worried about the open pore problem, where direct stain will soak in
and darken too much. I'm going to try the spray approach on my first go.
When you suggest to seal the wood with a clear coat, then tint the lacquer -
are you suggesting a clear lacquer coat as the first coat on the bare wood?
Or a clear sanding sealer coat first on the bare wood?
Either will do. Coat of shellac would do fine as well. I'd probably just
shoot a light coat of clear lacquer. I have yet to really work with
sanding sealers, since I don't particularly see the need for them for
clear finishes.
Post by RJ
I think the direct stained rubbing approach sounds like the ultimate in eye
popping grain detail, but I'm a little intimidated by the tricky hand work.
Well, there are many, many different opinions on that, and I've seen
spectacular tinted maple finishes using both direct staining and only
tinting the lacquer. If you've got some scraps, get some dye out and try
various methods, and compare them when you're done.
Post by RJ
I'm going to get one stain job under my belt first, but I am going to save
Chris' instructions for the double stain, for the next project. I went to
heavy before on a funiture project, and lost the chatoyance of the grain, as
you mentioned.
That's where tinted lacquer's easier; you can put too much on, obscuring
the grain, but it's easy enough to undo. If you've got too much stain in
the wood, well, it's a bit late to do anything about it.
Post by RJ
I 'm thinking of a light amber tinted lacquer spray coat, followed by a
second tinted lacquer coat. On the second coat, would like to slightly
darken and add a slight red tint, for an orange/amber result. My pigments
are the ColorTone waterbased, with the ColorTone clear waterbase lacquer. Do
you see any problem with mixing a little red tint, and a minute amout of
black to tint the clear lacquer for the second "stain" spray coat?
Nope, no probs. Should work fine. But TEST IT ON SCRAP FIRST. That, and
remember the colortone stains you have are concentrated; a single drop
in a small amount of lacquer may already give you too strong a stain.
Dilute the stuff, and see what works for you. Better to have it too
light, and have to spray two coats than too dark.
Post by RJ
Mattia and Chris - I very much appreciate your time for this advice.
no probs.

Mattia
Chris Johnson
2004-06-06 04:05:05 UTC
Permalink
You're welcome, of course.



But, please note this:


Even some PRS guitars suffer from a slight loss of the chatoyance effect
by their use of a double stain. The finish enhances contrast but at
some loss of chatoyance.

One way around this, sort of, is to do your darker base stain first,
sand it back some, and then apply the second (lighter) color not as
a stain, but in tinted lacquer. I think this helps because you're
putting less dye in the wood itself.

Believe me, there's lots of room to experiment!

CJ

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